“Bring this Zen Practice Back”

Su Bong Zen Monastery Interview

This year, Su Bong Zen Monastery in Hong Kong celebrates its thirtieth anniversary. Primary Point interviewed the guiding teachers to take a close look into their trajectory of spreading Zen teaching during the past three decades. The Zen center in Hong Kong was opened twenty years after Zen Master Seung Sahn went to the West. In the last part of his life, he intended to plant new dharma seeds in Asia, where Buddhism already existed. Through this interview, we wish to give a glimpse of this adventure. The interview was conducted by Bop Yo Sunim for Primary Point.

Primary Point: How did you start your journey of thirty years in Hong Kong? From your first meeting with Zen Master Seung Sahn?

Zen Master Dae Kwan: He came when I was on a three-month retreat in Korea. I didn’t know who he was. I really didn’t know. My first meeting with Zen Master Seung Sahn was in the interview room, and he tested me with a kong-an from Dropping Ashes on the Buddha. I was giving him answers, and he really tried to help me to answer that kong-an correctly. I found him very cute. [Laughter.] That was my first impression of Dae Soen Sa Nim, and I found him to be very easy. A very easy teacher to connect with, not through words, but mind to mind. 

PP: How did you become part of establishing a Zen center in Hong Kong? 

ZMDK: One of my old Hong Kong friends came to visit me in Korea after the ninety-day retreat. She really connected with him. When he said he wanted to have a Zen center in Hong Kong, my friend pointed to me. “She is from Hong Kong!” Actually I refused at the beginning because I wasn’t living here and wanted to go back to Thailand to help my Thai teacher. But also I liked Zen kong-an practice. I found it interesting. So I just wanted to help as a volunteer. I didn’t know he was that serious. But I just followed the flow.

PP: Do you know why Zen Master Seung Sahn wanted to establish a Zen center in Hong Kong?

ZMDK: Wherever he went, he wanted to open a Zen center. No matter where. But at the same time I heard from Zen Master Su Bong that Zen Master Seung Sahn wanted to “bring this Zen practice back to China and show his gratitude for what he attained.” When I heard that, I didn’t know why, there were tears running in my heart. “Wow, somebody has that gratitude mind!” 

His dream was to see more people practicing in China because that’s where Zen is originally from. But when he visited the Sixth Patriarch’s temple, Nam Hwa Sa, he was sad to see people were doing a lot of rituals and chanting, but not so much Zen practice. Of course in China there are many great Zen teachers and practitioners, but the way they teach kong-ans is a little different from how our school does it. Zen Master Seung Sahn was bringing those kong-ans back to life! In China they didn’t emphasize this living quality of the kong-ans. You know, his teaching is powerful. Very handy. You can use his dharma right away. You don’t need to know many terms. It’s a direct experience. You drink water, then you understand. It’s so direct, right? In China, one monk asked Zen Master Seung Sahn “What is Zen?” Then Dae Soen Sa Nim gave this monk a candy and said, “Open your mouth and try it!” The monk put it into his mouth, then he smiled and bowed. He got it! And I think that was what was missing in traditional Chinese Buddhism in those days. 

PP: How were the early days of the Zen center in Hong Kong? 

ZMDK: The Zen center was opened in 1992. When I first came back to Hong Kong I didn’t know anybody. So my friend who visited me in Korea, she organized all those things. Hong Kong people are interesting. They like to be involved with everything. They just want to go to a place out of curiosity. And that’s how people first came to the Zen center. At that time, meditation was not popular at all. And if you told people that you practiced meditation, people would shout at you, “You’ll become a demon practicing meditation!”

People thought we were in a cult, and they said many not-so-nice things about us. They pretended not to see us on the street, and hardly opened their doors when we visited them. Not welcoming. Some senior monks kept asking me, “Why do you practice with a Korean teacher? We also have good Chinese Zen masters.” Then I just put my palms together, bowed, and said, “I'm sorry, I have no good karma. This is my affinity with Thailand and Korea. So please excuse me.”

One time a woman called up the Zen center and said “You are not teaching correctly. Aren’t you afraid of going to hell?” And I said, “I’m already in hell.” Then this woman was stuck. “I don’t know what to say to you.” “Somebody calls and yells at me. I’m already in hell.” She couldn’t respond and hung up. 

Many people came and went at that early stage. And finally, many students left after Zen Master Su Bong passed away in 1994. At that time Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “It doesn’t matter if people leave. No problem. You yourself practice is very important. Even one person, you practice.” This really gave me a lot of encouragement. We kept practicing steadily, and eventually more people gradually gathered to continue the journey of our Zen center in Hong Kong.

PP: When did the situation around the Zen center start to change? 

ZMDK: It took a long time actually. 

Bon Sun Sunim JDPS: After the first ten years maybe. I came here in 2003, and around that time things slowly got better. 

ZMDK: In the early days, my Chinese teacher, Ven. Cheung Way Fa Si, also helped a lot. He was popular, and had a few thousand students. He liked Zen Master Seung Sahn, and also he trusted me because I had known him since I was very young. He visited Korea to join the Whole World Is a Single Flower conference and was impressed by it. When he returned to Hong Kong, he told everybody “Zen Master Seung Sahn is an enlightened person.” He gave us a lot of support and encouragement. He helped us to organize a talk that was attended by about five hundred people.

But it was still very difficult at that time. Even though many people attended the talk, how many people actually understood? Maybe one or two. Many people like to come and listen to the talk, but few people end up practicing. 

At the beginning, people criticized meditation as a selfish practice. “You only sit and just think about yourself. You make no contribution to the world or to society.” So then, for the first time in the history of Hong Kong, we organized a meditation event. In 1998, we did meditation to raise funds for flood victims in eastern China. We sat for three hours and raised 400,000 Hong Kong dollars to give to the Red Cross. Zen Master Seung Sahn and some of his monastic students came and gave talks and taught soen-yu. That was really the first time in Hong Kong that we directly helped others through meditation. And from that time onward, Zen meditation became more accepted in society.

PP: Did your students like to wear Korean robes for practice from the beginning?

ZMDK: Not back then. But now they are happy. They feel the robes are beautiful and elegant.  

BSSN: The situation changed after they watched a Korean movie. [Laughter.]

DKZM: Actually we have to give credit to a Korean soap opera. [Laughter.] It saved our life in Hong Kong. When we walked on the street people started to recognize our robes. 

BSSN: Also some students from our Zen center went to other centers to work as volunteers. And they really behaved well. People asked them “Oh, where are you from?” “I’m from Su Bong Zen Monastery.” Then slowly we gained a good reputation. 

ZMDK: We have to make the teachings alive through our behavior—how we conduct our lives and how we treat each other. We have to practice how we relate to people. That’s why our school’s teaching says “don't check,” meaning you don’t check others. “Don’t hold” means if something happened, even though people were good or bad, don’t hold on to it. And “put it all down.” These phrases are not just empty speech. They’re about really putting these words into our everyday life.

For the past thirty years we’ve brought these teachings into our everyday life, into the world of function. Kong-ans are not only stories in a book or in the interview room. Kong-ans are really our everyday life. And yeah, this is how we came through these thirty years. 

PP: How have your students been using kong-ans practice in their daily life?

BSSN: One of the senior students shared a story about something that happened in his office. He had answered the kong-an “Dok Sahn Carrying His Bowls.” Then one day something similar happened at the office. His supervisor yelled at him, just how Dok Sahn yelled at Am Du in the kong-an, asking “Do you not approve of me?” And the student gave an answer similar to that in the kong-an. Afterward, his relationship with his supervisor was transformed and improved. 

ZMDK: Also, you know, we have some societal problems in Hong Kong recently. Many people take sides in this situation. But here we only talk about absolute; we don’t touch opposites. When people are in a hostile situation, they remember “The floor is brown, the wall is white.” They remember this answer in the midst of a conflict. Then all the worries and fears disappear. Just coming back to this moment. To this absolute world. I feel happy when I see students using the dharma or the kong-ans in their everyday life. This gives us a lot of energy and encouragement to move forward.

BSSN: What I have seen is Sifu (Zen Master Dae Kwan) really puts a lot of effort into giving interviews. In other Zen centers, maybe students can get an interview once a month or so, unless they actually live in the Zen center. When I first came to Hong Kong twenty years ago, some students were getting two or three interviews per week. Sifu was younger and had lots of energy. One time she even called us up from the airport to set up an interview room. “OK, now I’m in the airport!” 

With this effort, our students kept a close relationship with Sifu. And they received a lot of advice from her to settle their life problems. They really appreciate that. For years, whenever they faced some problem with family, with work, they would put everything into practice. They all came to Sifu because she gave so much time to everybody. This really makes a difference.

ZMDK: You care about your students. Care also means being grateful to them. I really am grateful to them, because without the students, we cannot have the temple. I’m helping them but actually they are also helping the temple. So it’s not just one way. I give energy to them but also they, like everyone here, come from a long way. I know everybody is tired. They have to take care of their family and carry their tired body to their job. When I look at them, I look with great gratitude and appreciation. And what I can return to them is the sharing of the dharma. People have a choice. Why do they come? They can go to other places. People don’t have to be nice to us, but they are nice to us. When you practice and when you see everything as it is, then you will see everything with great gratitude. Not only people but also nature. With the sky, with a mountain, with a frog, with every stone, and with everything around me, I feel great gratitude.

So I respect them. 

PP: After thirty years of this journey, what is the next step for the Zen center? 

ZMDK: Right now, a new retreat center project is in progress, Hae Su Zen Center. Actually, we got this old temple on Lantau Island twelve years ago. We cannot use the temple as is, so we have to renovate it. We have to completely redesign the whole temple. So when it’s finished, we can hold up to a hundred people for a retreat. 

One of our good friends said to us “If you have a bigger temple, you can receive more people. If one million people know your skill and can bring this practice back to society, our society will be very different.” Then I said “OK, let’s wait for the one million!”

BSSN: The project has already begun. We have just enough money to kick off the project for the construction part. But later we will need more funds to continue the whole project. We have begun, but of course the most important thing depends on the funds, and they have to come in on time. Otherwise maybe a little delay? We don’t know. Hopefully next year everything will be done and we can use this place for the thirty-year anniversary event. And later we can use the temple for the Whole World Is a Single Flower conference, and for all of our sangha members who plan to come to Hong Kong and practice.